Ask Mike: The Twinkie Defense
Hey Guys,
I’ve heard the phrase “Twinkie defense” many times over the years, but I never stopped to figure out what it actually means. I asked the Yahoo! Answers community for some assistance and was greeted with a slew of helpful responses.
You know your trial isn’t going very well when your attorney calls a cream-filled cake to the witness stand to testify to your innocence. But that’s exactly what the Twinkie defense is. OK, not exactly. The phrase came about during a double murder trial in San Francisco in 1979. Dan White, a former city supervisor, was charged with assassinating the city’s mayor, George Moscone, and another supervisor, Harvey Milk. At the trial, a psychiatrist testified that White suffered from depression. As an example, he explained that White, a former health food addict, had recently changed his diet dramatically and begun drinking Coca-Cola and eating Twinkies (not exactly the healthiest snack in the world).
Over the years, the phrase and its meaning have been confused. White’s attorney meant that eating junk food was a symptom of depression. But people took it to mean that the junk food actually caused the depression. Things got even more confusing when White was given what was believed to be a relatively lax prison sentence.
Long time satirist Paul Krassner actually coined the phrase, but it’s important to remember that even though he got a light sentence, Dan White’s lawyer didn’t argue that his client’s judgment was impaired by Twinkies. It makes for a good story, but Snopes.com put that urban legend to rest a long time ago.
Regardless, expect to hear a lot more about the Twinkie defense and what it actually means in the coming months. A movie about the assassinations of Moscone and Milk and starring Sean Penn will hit theaters this December.
So that’s the truth behind the Twinkie. Now, does anybody understand what the heck “diplomatic immunity” really means? I’ve seen “Lethal Weapon 2,” but I have a feeling there’s more to it than that…
Thanks for reading,
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diplomatic immunity?
google it!
Addendum: In case you don’t know the last part of the Dan White saga, he committed suicide not too long after his release.
I’m glad to see that you are very precise about a legal case. So many people misconstrue what a judicial decision actually means. Where the law is concerned accurate reporting is mandatory.
Diplomatic Immunity means that a representative of a foreign government is not subject to the civil law of a country and that any accusation of criminal wrong doing must be addressed to the foreign government directly. It is the discretion of the foreign government to allow prosecution by the authorities or if they will prosecute. The only recourse authorities have in the case the foreign government’s refusal, is to ask the State Department to revoke the offender’s credentials.Such an act is done at the discretion of the State department.
now thats intresting. I gotta remember that!
Sorry, but precision is not much of a virtue when you’ve got it wrong.
There was no argument that junk food cause the depression per se, but there WAS an argument that the junk food CONTRIBUTED to his “diminished capacity.”
The Twinkie defense is NOTHING compared to the Chewbacca defense.
I am always shocked I guess when a generation under 40 has never heard of the reasons behind the “Tiwnkie Defense” But then have become accustomed to two generations of people whose parents and schools taught them so little social history …. having lived thru that horrible event when the policeman murdered Harvey Milk because he was “gay” and then used the fact he had been eating junk food and “twinkies” for weeks as a defense, and had an attorney who actually thought it would fly, just shocked me.
But there you have it. Cops supposedly can get away with things like that, but the average joe on the street would be hanged before the matter could get to trial.
I meant George Moscone of course, but Harvey Milk was murdered also because he was gay, and every straight person in the Bay area tries that “twinkie” crap every time they murder a gay person. Hopefully, it is no longer working.
Wow. I never knew that!
the reason diplomatic immunity is done is so if we a conflict with a country they cant make up stuff and charge our diplomats. it started with military messangers back in the day
As usual, straight dope has addressed the question, this time back in November of 2005. Link is here: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdiploimmunity.html
Diplomatic immunity is not a free pass to commit crime, the person is still under the law of the host country, and as stated in the link given above:
In the United States, the State Department maintains a twenty-four-hour hotline for use by local law enforcement to verify the current status of any arrestee who claims diplomatic immunity. Once his identity as a diplomat is established, he must be released. The most the host country can do is expel him, declaring him persona non grata, or a person no longer welcome. If he remains in the country after being “PNG’d,” his diplomatic status may be revoked and he may be arrested like a mere mortal.
They tried this defense but it failed. It has never worked.
… Cops supposedly can get away with things like that, but the average joe on the street would be hanged before the matter could get to trial. …
Dan White wasn’t a cop. He was a city supervisor who gave up his seat, then wanted it back.
I totally saw something about this on Mostly True Stories: Urban Legends.
Sweet!
I was just watching Law and Order: SVU and they mentioned the twinkie defense because the murder suspect said he couldn’t control his actions because of all the concussions he had recieved playing football. I wondered what it meant and now I know.
My Dad moved into San Fransisco, Dan White hated gay people, and the mayor at that time favored them and dan white was infuriated when he was forced to work with a gay man, later in that year Dan white was fired… and replaced with Harvey Milk, Dan White came to city hall one night and shot the mayor and harvey in the face, he ran to the basement, and snuck out the windows that lay parrallel to the garden(Those windows now contain bars over them). The Gays of San Fran went insane, Rioting, protesting and such because the mayor majorly supported gays, and there are a lot of them in San Fran, Later White was caught and tried and he used the twinkie defense as described above and was found innocent and years later white hung himself in his garage unable to take the criticism, at least thats what i remember.
When I saw this “twinkie defence’ posting I surely thought of the greatest ‘Twinkie” line ever mentioned but it came long after 1978 like mid 80′s.
I forget the exact words but anyone remember when in Ghostbusters the measured level of physcokinetic (sp) was compared to a twinkie the size of the island of manhattan…shame no mention in posting…lol
Neil got it exactly right – the defense was “diminished capacity” brought on by depression, and junk food consumption was pointed to as evidence of it; here’s the whole story on the case.
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/May-June-08/On-this-Day–Dan-White-Convicted-of-Voluntary-Manslaughter.html
LOL!!! I thought the Twinkie Defense had to do with artificial ingredients and sugar causing hyperactivity and an uncontrollable behavior. A person wouldn’t realize that eating a Twinkie would cause him to lose control and therefore not be responsible for his behavior.
Didn’t that guy that was obsessed with Jodie Foster and tried to shoot Ronald Reagan or whoever in order to impress her also claim the twinkie defense? I thought his twinkie defense was that he’d been eating them and was on a sugar high or something dumb…I’ll have to look it up better. It’s cool to know what it really is though.
I always thought that Twinkie Defense ment that the defenses case was full off fluff you know like saying they went temporarily insane when the person is very sane with no history of any type of dementia or stressfull events that lead to such events huh learn somethin new everyday!!
In regaurdes to diplomatic immunity-
( please dont hold my spelling aginst me)
There is another loop hole that hasn’t been mentioneed other than the 24-hour verification hold.
If somone with diplomatic immunity poses an imidiet threat to others they can be arrested For example if a diplomat is caught driving under the influance they may be arrested, however the charges will most likely not stick. here’s the kicker if they say for instance assalted or murdered somone after the fact they can not be prosecuted, action is only permitted if say they are caught trying to kill somone, but, not after -
JUCTICE JUCTICE RAH-RAH-RAH….. GO JUSTICE
That is an interesting question. There appears to be much truth to the “twinkie defense”. These are just two websites that cover sugar and behavior.
“Many individuals believe they suffer from reactive hypo-glycemia because they experience symptoms of weakness, confusion, and irritability after eating sugars or other carbohydrate foods. ”
National Institute of Health website
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/NN/B/C/R/J/_/nnbcrj.pdf
“High consumption levels of sugar-containing soft drinks were associated with mental health problems among adolescents even after adjustment for possible confounders.”
“Consumption of soft drinks and hyperactivity, mental distress, and conduct problems among adolescents in Oslo, Norway.” National Institute of Health website
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17008578
Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought White’s defense counsel tried to blame the defendant’s diminished capacity on Twinkie-induced depression.
So it’s a surprise to learn that counsel used White’s consumption of junk food as evidence of depression.
Either way, it marked the beginning of a sad era where some people seek to avoid taking responsibility for their actions, blaming environment, their upbringing, or vague psychological condition.
I first heard about the “Twinkie defense” and this case through a song. A band called The Dead Kennedys re-worked the old song “I Fought the Law” to include bits of this case. They’re from the bay area and were a politically active band, in their time. It still blows my mind that junk food could in any way be included in the defense…
yeah i watch that trial on tv, twinkies maybe the best selling snack but it couldnt sell to the judge….the guy still went to prison
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…….twinkies.
I am one of the under 40 oblivious members Jean Bennett refers to above, but even worse, I have never even heard of the “twinkie defense” until this topic. Not just that I didn’t know what it meant, I had never even heard it. Quite a sad tale, all of it.
In regards to comment by Jean Bennett about people under 40 not being taught social issues…..
I’m well over 40 and we were not taught social issues either, those were things you learned on your own
What the under 40 crowd missed was that you are not the only person in the universe and you have to take personal responcibility for your actions…
The “twinkie defense” is part of that….
People kill other people all the time, its because they have no morality, they were not taught there is right and wrong, let alone there is a God who loves us and cares. So they end up thinking nobody cares and it doesn’t matter what they do to whoever.
It certainly has nothing to do with what foods they had eaten the previous week. But lawyers have to work with the immoral and the depraved; to put on some sort of a defense even when there is no defense
is no easy task.
Maybe that event was “before your time” but it wasn’t before mine. The feeling then was that the guy got a light sentence because he “only” killed a “fag” and the judge and jury were just looking for an excuse to cut him a break, The “Twinkie defense” was that excuse.
The term in popular culture is akin to “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid”. Ask an under-40 where that one came from.
It’s the defense used by the killer of HARVEY MILK.
Do a little research people.
After his release, Dan White confessed that the murders were premeditated, and that he had meant to kill 2 more that day – Carol Ruth Silver and Willie Brown.
In addition, there has been some skepticism as to whether White actually committed suicide, as his body was not shown. There was some speculation that it was simply a coverup to allow him to start a new life out of the public eye.
Diplomatic immunity is a tit-for-tat arrangement. We give immunity to foreign diplomats and their staff members (The mechanics have been well-described by other posters here) so that the other country will do the same for our diplomats over there. The actual terms may need to be re-visited. Our foreign delegates should step up to fines for parking violations, and so should theirs, for example. Sometimes, I think, the State Department goes overboard in protecting relations with other countries in the hopes of some future diplomatic achievement. Or maybe I just watch too much CSI – Miami.
I think you overestimate the intelligence of Yahoo Answers Users
Is this similar to the “Chewbacca defense” offered up By O.J.’s attorney’s
that is amazing i never knew that lol
“don’t Drink the Kool-Aid” = Jonestown
p.s. I’m 32.
I think Wikipedia says it best so check out the URL below for Diplomatic Immunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity
The twinkie defense originated with the assassination of the mayor of San Francisco, Mayor Mosconi. A Mr. White, a disgruntled councilman killed him and then claimed that he wasn’t thinking clearly because of all the sugar he ate. Thus the twinkie defens.
There’s the Hostess plant in San Francisco, just off the highway with a big old billboard. For years whenever it read “Home of the Twinkie” someone would rapidly spray paint “Defense”.
According to Snopes, Dan White defended on the ground of dimininished mental capacity. As evidence of his depression, it was shown that previously, he had been very health conscious in his diet, but that lately, he had been eating Twinkies almost exclusively. There was no assertion that the Twinkies had caused his depression, or that they were responsible for the murder, but that his consumption of them, to the exclusion of almost everything else, was evidence of his depression. This is another fine example of the uninformed media plying its trade to sell newspapers.
When someone tries to force a Twinkie into your mouth, hit them in the face with a YOO_HOO
In jurisprudence, “Twinkie defense” is a derisive[1] label for a criminal defendant’s claims that some unusual biological factor entered into the causes or motives of an alleged crime. According to this defense, the biological factor should mitigate the defendant’s responsibility, and he therefore should not be held criminally liable for actions which violated the law, or the criminal liability should be reduced to a lesser offense. While biological factors may certainly influence behavior, the label of “Twinkie defense” implies that the specific biological factor is one that most people would view as not being sufficient to account for criminal activity, such as the effects of allergies, minor stimulants such as coffee and nicotine, sugar, and/or vitamins.
Diplomatic immunity means that if you are a diplomat in a foreign country, and you do something illegal, the worst thing that can happen to you is deportation back to your host country.
The “twinkie defense” came about due to a man, fired from his job, tried to murder his boss, and blamed it on the massive quanities of twinkies he had comsumed during the week. Hense the so called defence. Now people use it as a saying when someone is trying to blame their own actions on someone or something else that causes them to have “uncontrolled” bad judgment. Look it up in the judical/law books.
I learned all about this because I was in a play about the trial of Dan White. It’s called Execution of Justice, and I played Dr.Blinder – the man who argues the Twinkie Defense. While most people laughed at me when I mentioned it, but after it explained what it ACTUALLY WAS – as you said, not the cause, but an indicator, and something that couldn’t have helped – people were shocked, and quite interested. I fully recommend seeing the play, or reading the script.
interesting the variety of answers.
i understand it 2 b the Dan White defense 4 the murders of Mayor Mosconi and councilman Harvey Milk, who was gay, in San Francisco. Apparently Dan White had been depressed, eating twinkies and was hypo-glycemic when he committed the murders.
i remember this bcuz when i learned about this, i also learned that one slang term for an old gay is “twinkie” go figure. ironic but sad.
I’ve lived in the San Francisco Bay Area my entire life, and the incidents to which you’re referring are still pretty-fresh in my memory. And if my memory is serving me, then the “Twinkie Defense,” as used by the defense attorney, DID, in fact, imply that junk food was at least partly responsible for the defendant’s state of mind.
Let’s just say that, yes, White was depressed, and yes, he was stressed out by various things that were going on in his life…and eating junk food was BOTH a symptom of and a contributor to his state of mind. In other words, eating junk food exacerbated the already-poor state of mind…but he was, perhaps, more-inclined to eat junk food instead of wholesome things because he was depressed and under stress.
While “The Twinkie Defense” is not ENTIRELY “junk science,” I still don’t feel that any of the factors constituted a defense for what he did. If that is someone’s idea of a legitimate defense, then, frankly, ANYONE with a good lawyer could argue for “diminshed capacity” and get away with ANYTHING.
Very good Mike.
Remember, Money and influence buys the system.
Dan took himself out in a gay-rage! breathing gas fumes from his auto.
Frisco, always will be Frisco and thats the truth.
This was most interesting; to be honest, I’ve never heard of that saying until now…
It is true that the “twinkie defense” came out during the Dan White trial.
The theory was that he was eating a lot of junk food,
and that caused him to snap.It was not just twinkies.
The term for an old Gay is not “twinkie”
There is a term that applies to a young Gay as
“twink” That’s not fair,either.
At any rate,involuntary manslaughter for killing two
elected people,when the killer brought a loaded gun,
and reloaded,and to avoid metal detectors,snuck
in through a basement window: That’s about as
premeditated as it gets.
Moral of the story:If you’re going to kill someone,
kill yourself instead.You’re probably going to end up
that way anyway,and you’ll save your family (and
the victim’s family) so much grief.
hihi
interesting
See the Song “I Fought the Law (and I Won)” by the Dead Kennedys. It was written about this trial.